[00:00:05] Russell: This is Contributors, a show exploring how today's Canadian business leaders are building a better future for Canada. So, Jade, we got a big guest on today's show. A big one. 

[00:00:16] Jade: We do. Our guest is from Canada's largest professional services firm. Who is it? 

[00:00:23] Russell: It is Anthony Viel from Deloitte, and he likes to be called AV. And I'm really excited about this episode. 

[00:00:30] Jade: I'm so excited. I think the biggest alignment to our podcast and Deloitte is their purpose. They're in the business of building a better future for Canada, a thriving future for Canada. What are you excited for? 

[00:00:47] Russell: Yeah. I'm excited to hear about that. I'm excited to hear about the work that Deloitte does. I'm also excited to hear about AV's personal journey. I know he is an immigrant to Canada. And I know there's a lot about him that makes him a really unlikely CEO for one of the big four firms. So I want to hear about that and how we ended up here. 

[00:01:09] Jade: Very grateful to have him on the show. Let's dive in. 

[00:01:13] Russell: Let's do it. So AV, welcome to Contributors. 

[00:01:23] Anthony Viel: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 

[00:01:26] Russell: As wonderful to have you here with us today. I think first and foremost, for those that aren't familiar with you and your story, tell us about yourself. 

[00:01:34] Anthony Viel: Yeah, my name is Anthony Viel. And as you referred to me as AV. Everyone can tell from my accent I'm not from around this part of the woods, so to speak. Everyone from Australia gets a nickname, and mine is AV. I've been seven years in Canada. Just become a Canadian in 2022, which I'm so proud to be welcomed into this country, so grateful to be welcomed in this country. My background classically trained as an actuary and as a lawyer. My claim to fame in the professional services landscape is all things analytics, artificial intelligence, automation and digital. 

[00:02:07] Russell: Excellent. You did move to Canada in 2015, as you say. Earlier in my career, I worked really closely with the CEO, CEO of Foresters, which is a life insurance financial services provider here in Toronto. And this CEO was unusual and he was from the United States. So when he became CEO of Foresters, part of his experience was coming to Canada. And there were a lot of things that he found wonderful about that, but there were things that he found unusual and confusing as well. I know one of the big things that he commented on was milk bags. He couldn't figure out why Canadians were drinking so much milk that they needed these giant bags. So my first question to you is, what are the wild and wonderful things that you've encountered since moving to Canada? 

[00:02:54] Anthony Viel: Too many to mention. I will say there's a lot of similarities between Australia and Canada. Values are aligned, expectations, societal and society are aligned. So that part was easy. And my dog introduced himself to a skunk when we got here. So that was messy for the skunk that is, and not just for the dog. And he's a white dog. So that didn't go down very well at all. You know, what I learned also was a great appreciation for the survival instincts of Canadians. I mean, this is a hard country, and I still scratch my head. As to the early pioneers of this country have, I must have, how resilient would they have to been, and how bad was it on the East Coast to continue going west, because that wouldn't have been pretty. 

[00:03:43] Russell: That's a really good point. I have a good friend who says that some times when we had those really cold days in the winter, he'll say, what were our ancestors thinking? So you are the CEO of Deloitte Canada and Chile, I believe. And one of the things that blew me away when I was learning about you in anticipation of meeting you today is that you are not an accountant. You mentioned that in the intro, but for those that have worked in professional services to become a CEO of one of the big four firms and to not be an accountant, that's incredible. So I wanted to ask you about that. And I also wanted to ask, do the other partners know? Are they aware that you're not an accountant or am I breaking this news right now? 

[00:04:29] Anthony Viel: The secret's out Russell. I've just have been exposed. No, they certainly, the process to get elected to CEO is complete and comprehensive, as you'd expect as an organization. We're a three billion dollar organization across Canada and Chile, all provinces of Canada and most of Chile. So if you think about that two countries, three languages, and we have a brand, beautiful brand that's been built on the back of our accounting services audit expertize. But today we're not, when I say a grandparents accounting firm, we're quite different. And traditional services that our brand is associated to all the time is probably less than 30 percent, to be honest. So that sort of gives rise to, you know, a non accounting name given the opportunity. But you are right. I'm the first non-CPA, non-Canadian in 167 years in Canada and about to be 100 years in Chile. I'm blessed, Russell. I wake up every morning to pinch myself and it's, you know, it's just quite an unbelievable privilege and one that I'd never expected seven years ago. 

[00:05:47] Russell: Yeah. Well, congrats to you on that achievement and congrats to the Deloitte Partners for having the vision to elect you. 

[00:05:55] Anthony Viel: Russell, that's an important point. How good is Canada, to as a country to embrace, you know, somebody from the outside and then to be given the privilege? You know, I have nothing but admiration for an organization in that country that can do that. And, you know, we speak about, you know, countries providing immigrants with, you know, opportunities for new lives to reestablish themselves. I mean, this country was built on that premise, and we're still living at 175 years on from where we settle here. So I just think that's I may, I reflect on that often, Russell, just to say, how good is an organization that let you do that? 

[00:06:41] Russell: Yeah, that's incredibly well said. I know you did have the opportunity to become a citizen this summer, and I want to say congratulations and welcome to you on that. And I wondered if you could share some of your reflections on what does it mean to you to be a Canadian and how do you see our national identity? Because I know in my opinion, sometimes the people who have made the decision to become Canadian have a sharper handle on what that means than people like myself who just had the dumb luck of being born here. Right. I didn't choose to be a Canadian. You did. So I think you had the opportunity to think about it in a way that I likely didn't. 

[00:07:23] Anthony Viel: I can tell you what, Canada, to me has some wonderful values that really, really appealed to me. And I mean that. It's just I've felt nothing but, you know, being welcomed across the country. Like to play a role in bringing this country closer together. I find sometimes it's four, five, six countries in one. And I just go, I think we've got to be honest as Canadians, it we're still a small country, and if we don't come together, we're not going to do, you know, big things. And most importantly, in a world that's looking for inspiration and belief in human values, Canada's got a role to play globally. I feel that we've got such a foundation to do that. And by becoming a citizen to be part of this potential that I see for Canada was quite frankly, inspiring to me and made it easy to want to be part of that. And I think of things, you know, just to make it practical. I mean, what country is welcoming 1.5 million immigrants in the next three years on a population of 37 million people? You know that, that's incredible. What city like Toronto, one in four not born in the country, which is kind of extraordinary. I want to be part of that. You know, that's special. 

[00:08:49] Russell: It's interesting that you talk about that and that diversity, because that's something that's come up again and again on Contributors. So many of our guests have talked about that as one of Canada's greatest strengths. And something that they've also said it's a real theme is that if we want to unlock Canada's potential, we need to really lean in on this strength. What are your thoughts on that? 

[00:09:13] Anthony Viel: Yeah, well, I'm presenting here on this podcast with, you know, with an organization that has a bunch of actuaries. Canada has got a math problem. You know, we've got a lot of aging Canadians, and we're not going to sustain the Canadian way of life and evolving way of life unless we have more Canadians. That is for a fact. There's no debate to that. Opening the doors to skilled and unskilled immigrants is critical. I mean, this country was built on by skilled and unskilled. I think we need both. And that's coming through in the services sector, the construction sector, infrastructure sector. We need both skilled and unskilled to come forward to build the community, stronger communities, bigger communities that we can scale. There's other statistics out there that show that Canada integrates immigrants better than anyone else in the world. So I think, again, we've got to recognize that while we can improve, we certainly can. We can do this better than anybody. This is a Canada advantage, and we should be doubling down on that. You would be familiar with the statistics today. There's a million job vacancies, a million out of 37 million people. And I say also, you know, I'd be wrong of me to say that immigration is the only answer. We've also got a million people that can't get a job. We have a responsibility there. So you put one and a half million immigrants with a million underemployed or unemployed folk. Micro-credential them perhaps so expedite the skills and training that they need. And we take the first big step to building this this stronger country. 

[00:10:59] Russell: Let's talk a little bit about your tenure as Deloitte Canada CEO. So you joined at a pretty challenging time. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

[00:11:09] Anthony Viel: Yeah, I was reflecting on this recently as I was reading Craig Alexander's economic forecasts. As you know, Craig's probably one of the preeminent economists in this country. And today, October 2022, we're in recession. So I look back over my last three and a half years ago. Well, we had the Chilean crisis, the social crisis, and then the you know, the referendum. It just concluded peacefully recently. And then we have the pandemic. We'll be back in two weeks. Remember that. We'll be back in two weeks. And this passes over. And now we're in recession. So to see those three events is accelerate is the societal change. I see them as, you know, reset buttons for some parts of our way of life that was a little askew. I see acceleration of digital, which Canada needs to be at the forefront of that. So rather than looking at them as woe is me, look at these three things that are happened, that sort of looked at it as a Canadian citizen now and as a CEO of a leading organization in Canada and Chile. And so to say, you know, these are gifts. If you look at the perspective, you can take this as a gifts. Gifts in the sense that work is waking us up, to what's important in life, health and well-being, the need to digitally transform in a significant house, in social services and health systems. From the Chile perspective, the need for, you know, social reforms. 

[00:12:48] Russell: So I think there is a part of this that is still very much active, which is, you know, you might call it the great resignation. You might call it the race for talent. The latest trend is quiet quitting. I'm not sure if you've heard about quiet quitting, AV, but Deloitte is not immune to this. So I'd like to know a little bit about how have you approached the sort of the race for talent at your firm? 

[00:13:13] Anthony Viel: Yes. Well, it's interesting. I mentioned the million job vacancies that present. We're not immune to that. Every Canadian organization, corporate or other public agency or otherwise, doesn't have enough talent. And if you sat me down for a cup of coffee tomorrow and this is what I do every day, I see at least the kind of day, I would sort of say this is a number one issue for them, and I say back to them, be prepared to be in this state for five to 10 years. And I say five to 10 years, ten being on the outside for the really specific digital resources, this specific cyber machine learning, artificial intelligence, those resources. And there I say, even some of the traditional resources like public accounting. And again, we cannot afford as Canadians to sort of press pause for ten years and wait for the storm to past. Ten years is a lot of time, is a long time. If Peter Diamandis was on the call, in case you don't familiar who he is. He is futurist and entrepreneur. He tell you that a convergence of exponential technologies is sort of he contends that is going to be 100 years of disruption in the next ten. So imagine as a corporate or as an organization, if you don't have enough talent for the next ten, you could be 100 years behind. That's the good news, Russell. So, the way we're going about it is trying to tap in this underemployed Canadians. And there's a lot unemployed Canadians, and trying to give, you know, the reskilling and the retooling in a systematic way through migrate venturing, through partnering with education institutions, to expedite speed up, you know, the skills, training, if you will, and augmenting that with on the job, if you will, to try, you know, shorten that curve, doubling down on digital and automation, which will alleviate the need and then create another need. And what I mean by that is we need some of that to help the movement of skills from different tasks and activities to what I call digital tasks and activity. And I say this in the sense that automation is actually going to create more jobs. Technology's actually going to create more jobs. We've got more than enough evidence on that basis, but we don't want to have two million people unemployed, which means that we've got to make sure that we give them their digital skills, reskill them, and make a conscious effort as employees. And that's what Deloitte is wanting to do. 

[00:15:58] Russell: Let's talk a bit about retention. So I have reached out to a couple of people I know at Deloitte, and asked them, you know, what's life like at Deloitte? And what I heard a lot about is something called Deloitte Days. So can you tell our listeners what is a Deloitte Day? How does it work? And frankly, why is it so popular with your employees, because they love it. 

[00:16:19] Anthony Viel: Russell, that's awesome that you get that feedback, by the way. But you know, like all corporate Canadian organizations, we are driving tactics to first and foremost ensure the health and well-being of our people. And, you know, working through the pandemic, it's been tough. And we've introduced one of our tactics with Deloitte Days. This year is 13 in addition to your normal leave, personal days and statutory holidays. If you work for Deloitte, you have 40 to 45 days off a year, eight to nine weeks a year. 

[00:16:55] Russell: And that's including like the 24 year old kids just out of school. 

[00:16:59] Anthony Viel: Yes, exactly. Why do we want to do that? Because we've got, you know, we've done more than enough work to suggest that when you're healthy, and when you're balanced, you're more productive. And we're fortunate now in our industry, you know, we measure production in terms of time. So notwithstanding, you have a more time off, the more time you can do with clients, we can measure. And, you know, that's linked to the way in which we recognize revenue and the like. So, you know, the site, the data, the data crowd here, hopefully the data would sort of say you're more productive, the healthy you are for longer, and that's important. And Deloitte Days, the feature of the Deloitte Days is this, we have picked days that where everyone takes their off. That is benefit number one. So, Russell, if you and I have a day each, so to speak, and we take it on different days. Guess what happens when you're off and I'm on? I'm calling you. I'll send you an email. 

[00:18:02] Russell: Yeah. And I love that, by the way. I love that you do it that way because when I first heard about it, I assumed it was like a lieu day, right, where you take it when you want it. And then I thought, well, you know, if I'm a Deloitte employee and you know, I look at my phone and it says AV, I'm going to answer. 

[00:18:18] Anthony Viel: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. And then this is the truth, when we introduced it, half the employees, might be exaggerating the half, a lot of them and say, is this guy for real? Does he really mean we can take the day off? I can tell you now how to two and a half years in, yeah, you do not get a call. You do not get an email. The second feature of the Deloitte Day is we normally call it if it's a three day weekend because of a strategy holiday, we'll make it a four day weekend. Think Canada Day as an example. So it just gives you a little bit more stretch, if you will. And when you return on the Tuesday, your inbox exactly the same size of what you left it on the Thursday or the Friday, whatever the case may be. And that's another thing. Think about when we take out normal leave, we come back and the inbox is like enormous, as a catch up. So, you know, the fact that we're not annoying each other when we're away and the fact that we start where we finished when we left has been very, very powerful for us and our clients, Russell. You know, like when our clients learn about this as well, and I'll mention another tool if I've got time, what we call team pledge. So we would do in excess of 20,000 engagements a year with clients. We sit down with each and every engagement and we sort of say team, including the client. How do you prefer to work? Calls at 7:00. Do they work in the morning? Calls on a Friday afternoon. Do they work in the morning, in the afternoon, etc.? It's just got such good feedback with not only at  people met with their clients, because guess what? We're all humans. We all need to be well. We all need, you know, a little bit of a hand to make sure we take care of each other. And that's really resonated for us. 

[00:20:11] Russell: I feel like in this part of the interview, a bunch of our listeners are now Googling how to send their resume in to you. Let's talk a bit about your purpose. So this idea of building a better future and obviously that includes a better future for Canada by expanding access to knowledge. What does that mean to you? 

[00:20:33] Anthony Viel: The full sentence Russell is helping and inspiring others to thrive people, organizations, communities and country to thrive. And we believe we can do that better than any organization by accelerating access to knowledge and opportunities to all Canadians. And that's what we try to do every day. We try to find that purpose in the work that we do with our clients. And if we can, we make sure the next time around that we do find that. So how we, you know, rebuilding communities by, you know, helping an organization in that community be more impactful, more successful, more global, grow. Growth is good. More people get opportunities, upward mobility of the of the communities, for instance. By extension, we're a corporate citizen. We have responsibilities to things like climate. You know, what commitments can we make climate or what commitments can we make the reconciliation action and, you know, making the commitments, public commitments that we're going to do that. And I'll give you an example. Like, you know, in our commitment to indigenous reconciliation and being able to empower, you know, indigenous organizations, economic empowerment to do indigenous organization, education to non-indigenous people about understanding and aware of some of the multiple challenges that are experienced by First Nations people. It's part of us trying to, you know, live our purpose. And where we can do that? Not necessarily as a CSR thing, but through the work that we do for others. This is what we're doing. This is what we're trying to do. We want to make, we want to play a role in making Canada better. And that means stronger citizens, stronger communities, stronger organizations. And we feel that we can do that as a global organization of 415,000 people across 150 countries. We believe we can do that better than anybody. 

[00:22:36] Russell: That's fantastic. I was talking to one of your employees yesterday about your purpose. What he said really struck me, and he said, the purpose starts with Deloitte employees, and he said, I have never worked somewhere where the organization has had such a sincere investment into employee training. He had actually worked for other big four firms, a variety of different places, and he said the commitment to upskilling Deloitte employees constantly is just unequaled. Tell us about that investment. 

[00:23:16] Anthony Viel: I'm glad that you heard that Russell. In probably speaks to why you heard that is we're never satisfied. In the sense of something I said earlier, 100 years of disruption in ten years. You've got to adapt. And we know this acutely and you only adapt through training, through development. You've got to make a commitment to that. We have a university here. I'm not sure if the person mentioned that. And that's 200 people per day, you know, across across the population. As I said, 15,000 people, 200 people a day are going through that facility, over there, about, say, four days a week. So 800 a week or thereabouts. And that's a mechanism or a vehicle in which we can get systematic about it and keep doing it. 

[00:24:11] Russell: So when you talk about, you know, 100 years of upheaval, for some of the business leaders that are listening, specifically, what do they need to prepare for and how can they prepare for it? 

[00:24:24] Anthony Viel: I'm going to cheat, if I may I interviewed, I interviewed Peter Diamandis only a week ago, actually it was on a 360 event where CEOs came in and, you know, the message was loud and clear around, recognize that it's happening. You know, recognize that it's happening. It's first and foremost. The second thing is that with that recognition, you're going to have to make some investments. And I mentioned investments in digital technology and automation, that'll be a terrific place to start. And how you using that to create time and resources to do the things that you're good at with your clients, your customers, your citizens, whatever the case may be. So that's that might be the first thing that you need to do. The second thing that I call upon is there's no way as an organization you're going to keep up with this. So start the partner, align with ecosystems, if you will. We call that alliance partners and ecosystems is a whole part of our strategy, has a big organization, so if you're a small to medium sized, large organization, don't discount partnering because you're not going to keep on top. You're not going to have enough people to act on this. So that'll be the second. Be get used to partnering. You know, it's the way of the future because the concept that you're going to do it all your four walls and we're going to do it in a while, I'm going to build it myself. By the time you build something that's already moved, it's already moved. So that'd be the second thing that I'm going to call upon to do that. And then I mentioned earlier, you're going to have to think more innovatively about how you're bringing in talent. You know, the ideal talent person for you is on everybody else's all aboard for talent and there's not enough of them to go around. So you're going to have to be innovative in how you deploy or access and deploy and retain particular individuals because the future is about there's more jobs that you're going to need to fill, not fewer jobs. Now get your head around that. 

[00:26:42] Russell: So this show is called Contributors. And what we like to do on Contributors is tell stories of Canadian businesses that are making Canada better. So my question to you would be, how do you see that Deloitte Canada is making Canada better? 

[00:27:00] Anthony Viel: That's a difficult question. I'd like to think that we are living our advice as a corporation. You heard of the old adage, you know, you're like the cobbler's children shoes. They never in good order. But I believe the Deloitte is putting actions and deeds behind, and I hope that I just help and inspiring others. I've seen and I say this in the in the most complimentary way. I've seen out of this trying to follow our lead in certain areas as we are prepared to follow others in certain areas, even though it's not our idea, it's not our legacy, it's not our fame agenda. I'm hoping that Deloitte is a positive contributor to a community that has a big goal in mind and wants to work together and hopefully set an example for others to follow suit and that being make a stronger Canada and build on the values and foundation of this great country to make it even a better country, to be that shining light an example for the rest of the world. And I hope in our little way Deloitte is doing that, not just in downtown Toronto, but, you know, across 26 locations across the country, in every province. We're just playing just that little bit of a catalyst role, if you will. Hopefully we're inspiring others and and then we're backing it up with deeds, not only just talk. 

[00:28:40] Russell: One of the questions that we like to ask is what we call the secret sauce question, which is really if you have access to CEOs, our listeners want to know kind of, how did you do it? What is the secret behind your success? And when I asked about you, the question was a little different. And the question that sort of came forward for you was AV is not an accountant, and yet he leads one of the big four firms. He is not from a rich family. He's the first to go to university. He is not a Canadian. He is new to the country. He only came in 2015. So. So how do you have all of these, you know, potential strikes against you and yet you still make it to CEO? How did you do it? 

[00:29:30] Anthony Viel: I think I alluded to it earlier, Russell. It means, as much the organization as anything else. I get asked the question, how did you become CEO? I normally answer and this with all sincerity, the luck, right age, right time, that you're able to do that. And so that would be my first two things. The third thing which I'm passionate about is I think people would say about me, I'm just hungry. I just I want to give. I want to be, you know, chief. I want to be successful like everybody else. And I don't know if that's the immigrant in me. When you have nothing, and my grandparents who went to Australia, for instance, they come from a background of service, and one was a stonemason in Trieste. One was a sort of kitchen hand in Venice. And and we end up growing bananas. Like, I'm not sure they would have known what a banana was, but if you get exposure to that, you, you're hungry. You just, you're always trying to be better. And sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's not. But, you know, I think that's part of why I'm here today. I'm not special. I just work hard. And then if you find the right organization that's going to be receptive to that, I think I love to wait for that, because there are people sitting around my tables. They've all got a story like mine. You know, they've come from particularly in this country, by the way. It's built on, you know, settlers and the like. And I just, I think you'll find organizations, and there's a lot in Canada where no matter what your background, you're going to be successful. And it comes back to while I become a Canadian citizen, because this is one country around the world that allows you to do that. 

[00:31:28] Russell: So I just want to say AV, thank you so much for being here today on Contributors. I really, I loved our conversation. I think our listeners are going to love it as well, and really appreciate you making the time. 

[00:31:40] Anthony Viel: I hope so, Russell. It's been an absolute pleasure to be with you today, and I hope the audience got something out of it. And I look forward to collaborating with the Canadians and Canadian organizations to make this country better. If you've got an idea, let me know. 

[00:32:02] Jade: Russell, that was such a great conversation between you and AV. 

[00:32:07] Russell: It really was. 

[00:32:08] Jade: So much I want to in part. Let's start with who he is, where he comes from. So AV, as he calls himself, is an outsider. And he even said something along the lines of it takes an outside view to truly appreciate what generations of Canada have built. Tell me what your thoughts are on that. 

[00:32:30] Russell: Yeah, it's interesting, because one of the interesting kind of paradoxes of Canada is that it's often the people who weren't born here. It's often the first generation immigrants who seem to understand Canada best. And AV is absolutely one of them. The overall impression I got from him was he is somebody who has a lot of gratitude. He is somebody who has a lot of gratitude about the opportunities he's been given throughout his life. And that's really the way he approached his career at Deloitte as well, is the gratitude to be accepted by Canada, to be accepted by the Canadian partners of Deloitte. And I really see him kind of take that gratitude and turn that around to say, how can I repay that favor? How can I repay that favor by making Canada an even better place than the place that welcomed me. 

[00:33:26] Jade: Absolutely. I love that perspective on his background. 

[00:33:31] Russell: Yeah, his personal background is really unusual for the head of one of the big four firms. And I think that is impressive and I do think that likely gives him a different perspective as well, because he really talked about Deloitte as you know, you might think of Deloitte in terms of audit and the kind of traditional elements of what those firms did 40 years ago. But that's not who they are anymore. And really, they're working. I think he said 29 lines of business and really they're about helping solve business problems and societal problems. I think that definitely is something that is exciting and is maybe surprising to some of our listeners. 

[00:34:20] Jade: So a final thing I wanted to talk about, AV had said Canada has a math problem. And it's interesting. I immediately had thought about Yung Wu, who is on a previous episode in our last season, and he said Canada has an adoption to innovation problem. And this math problem is so true, right, and very relevant to what we talk about with our CEO, Derek Dobson. So let's talk a little bit about that. I mean, he said we need skilled and unskilled workers. We need to fix this math problem. And that's a serious issue for Canada, but something that Deloitte's working on improving. So let's unpack that a little bit. 

[00:34:59] Russell: It's funny that you mention Derek, because that's the first thing I thought of when I heard that was our CEO, Derek Dobson, who is also an actuary. And that's how he would frame it as well, is it's a math problem. So the math problem is really this idea of we need more workers and we need more skills than we have. And there's no where if you're just looking at Canada, you're not going to be able to find them. You're not going to be able to beg, borrow or steal the talent you need. So you need to be looking globally, but you also need to be looking to technology to find ways to automate processes that might be someone's job today so that you're able to have the capacity to invent the jobs of the future. It's very similar the way that AV talked about kind of the skills gap. It's really similar to how our CEO would talk about, you know, the retirement savings gap. Is that ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a math problem and you can't solve it using existing mechanisms. You need to think creatively. You need to think in an innovative way. And you may need to invent a solution that doesn't exist yet. 

[00:36:19] Jade: That's right. Excellent episode. Great conversation, Russell. Looking forward to the next one. 

[00:36:25] Russell: Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for setting an update. Thank you for listening to Contributors, the podcast for Canadian leaders. We hope you'll take away some valuable key insights and lessons from today's conversation. To help us reach even more listeners, please subscribe, rate and review Contributors on Apple Podcasts. If you'd like to learn more about CAAT, be sure to visit CAATPension.ca.