[00:00:07] Russell: Canadian businesses love to talk about adapting to the modern world. But what does that really mean? For companies like CIBC, modern means leading with a relationship oriented focus. It means listening to people, investing in people and creating change that impacts everyone, not just the bottom line. Today, I'm joined by CIBC CEO Victor Dodig. Technology is vastly changed the world of banking, but Victor will share why relationship management has actually been the bank's key to building success, as well as a better future. After this episode, you'll walk away with tangible ideas on how you can empower your front line staff, as well as simple yet highly effective steps to improving relationships with all your stakeholders. Enjoy. So, Victor, welcome to contributors. 

[00:01:01] Victor: Nice to be here, Russell. 

[00:01:04] Russell: In preparation for a meeting with you today, I did a little research and I found that you and I have a couple of things in common. So first, we're both from Toronto and we're both from kind of up and coming neighborhoods in Toronto, and I think you got some interesting stories on that. But there's also something that we have in common that I was really surprised by, which is we are both huge Disney World aficionados. 

[00:01:29] Victor: Yes, we are indeed. 

[00:01:31] Russell: Can you tell me a little bit about that? 

[00:01:32] Victor: Well, now that I know you are, I can tell you a lot, but I'm very excited about that. We've been Disney Vacation Club members as a family since 2007. 

[00:01:42] Russell: Amazing. 

[00:01:43] Victor: We've gone every year other than through COVID, and we're planning on going next month with our kids who are now between the ages of 19 to 25. And they still want to go and they still want to do the rides. They still want to do the waterpark. This is just want to enjoy the Disney culture. So it's, you know, as a kid we never went to Disney. It was all on TV for me. Yeah, it's it's a very special experience and certainly a company that focuses on bringing those experiences to life. 

[00:02:09] Russell: So I always tell people I get a lot of flack for this, for going to Disney every year and people say, why don't you go somewhere else like, isn't that just for kids? And I always say, you know, there is something about Disney that is inspiring, and there's also something about it that I think there's a lesson in there for for business. Do you take any business lessons from the Disney experience? 

[00:02:29] Victor: Oh, it's a business that's absolutely focused on their clients, their customers, their Disney aficionados by making the experience special, by keeping the parks clean, by making sure that everybody in their cast, everybody from those who sweep the streets to those who perform on stage have a sense of purpose as to what Disney is all about. And that, I think epitomizes who they are, and that epitomizes what great companies do. 

[00:02:58] Russell: Absolutely. Well, well said. I would say one of the things that my wife and I so appreciate is what we call the Disney bubble is the idea that once you're there in Disney World, you're safe, you're taking care of and you know, you're going to have an amazing experience. And I was like, I feel like that's something we should all strive towards in our businesses is creating a similar bubble for our customers. 

[00:03:18] Victor: Russell, what's your favorite ride? 

[00:03:20] Russell: That's a great question. Tower of Terror.

[00:03:23] Victor: Tower of Terror. It's between that and Space Mountain. 

[00:03:27] Russell: Let's talk a little bit about your career journey, specifically your career journey at CIBC. Where did that start? 

[00:03:34] Victor: Well, let me kind of frame it for you. I've bookended my life with CIBC. I started as a customer service representative or as commonly known teller but we like to say CSR, customer service rep, because they're focused on serving our clients. Back in 1985, it was my first office job when I was at the University of Toronto. I applied at a branch neighborhood branch in Mississauga, where I kind of grew up my my teen years, and I was offered opportunity work Thursday nights, Friday nights and Saturdays. And then in 2005, I came back to our bank as head of wealth management, and I've been captaining the team since 2014, September 2014. So it's a bit of a bookended career, if you will very pleased to have first experienced banking at the very front end and now leading a great team into the future. 

[00:04:23] Russell: Starting as a CSR, does that change your perspective? Do you think you have a different perspective as a leader because you started at the bank on the front lines? 

[00:04:33] Victor: Our frontline team members are incredibly important to our bank. It's where you engage with clients. And they know technology has changed banking but to this day, the majority of our clients still visit a banking center or their relationship manager. So being a CSR allowed me to see that up front. It taught me not only about transactions, but how to greet people, how to meet people and how to understand what they're dealing with in life, which is all part of the banking experience. And I always like to share a story of a gentleman who came in every week on this business and every week to get himself a check, get a tool and die business. So it would be $450 check. And every week you would sit with exchange niceties and every week you would deposit $400 and save $50 cash. And I'd fill out this deposit slip every week for three years. Thirty years later, I became CEO, the bank. Twenty eight years later, I saw him at an event. He looked at me, said, $400 deposit and I said, $50 cash. And that to me, like you were banking is all about. It happens in our banking center. It happens across the wickets and it happens with large transactions when are advising on M&A. It's the whole spectrum of it and everybody in between that helps make that happen. 

[00:05:43] Russell: Yeah, it's about the relationships. 

[00:05:45] Victor: It is.

[00:05:46] Russell: For those that don't bank with CIBC who are listening today. What makes CIBC different than the other big four Canadian banks? 

[00:05:54] Victor: I'd say there are a few things. One is, I think we have a very special purpose focused culture where we get out of bed every day and we know that our purpose in life is to make our clients ambitions real, and that's understood throughout the entire company. It's not about processing a transaction, it's not about making a loan or a deposit, but it's about making our clients ambitions a reality. Bringing them to life. And I think that is a big, big deal. The second aspect of what we do is relationships collaboratively across the entire bank. I always say banking is a team sport. We can only work collaboratively to serve our clients. And lots of times, most of the time our clients need more than just one individual on the team to help them make their needs develop and deliver on their needs. That whole notion of a team sport is incredibly important. And the third is the importance of technology. Not to displace relationships, but to complement them, to let clients do certain things on their own, to make their modern day banking experience more relevant, but also to strengthen relationships. And that's where technology plays an important role. I say those are the three defining characteristics of who we are. 

[00:07:04] Russell: Can we talk a little bit about the pandemic, how did the pandemic impact CIBC both internally and externally? 

[00:07:12] Victor: Well, we've been through two pandemics in the last 100 years. And you know, if you look at our history books, there's a photo of a photo in our archives from our banking center in Calgary, where everyone has their masks on, including over their noses. They weren't socially distanced at the time for the photo versus today, so we've been through this before. But then as today, it's tested, all of us, it's tested, our culture of purpose. Are we truly making our clients ambitions become a reality irrespective of the context that we're dealing in? It tested our team members. For those working at home, it was a real test because they had an extra level of complexity in their lives to deal with the personal aspect of their life, meeting the business aspect of their life in their home. To those and I always remind everybody that we had eighteen thousand over forty five thousand strong team working in our banking centers, in our vaults and in our operations centers who weren't at home. And they had equally challenging and sometimes more challenging conditions with plexiglass with clients and anxieties with the virus kind of front and center. So it's certainly tested all of us as a team and individually. It tested our clients, businesses, individuals, and that all manifested itself in what we're able to do for them as they felt this anxiety of an economy globally shutting down. No one's experienced a global shutdown. What do I do about my credit? What do I do about my mortgage? What do I do about payroll for my employees? And we really leaned in in terms of deferring credit, advancing more credit, providing the government programs, whether that be the Canadian government programs for business or the US government programs, and making sure that businesses can continue to function. So there's a lot of client anxiety there as well that we dealt with. And certainly technology and the role of play and I think everybody got a greater appreciation not only for mobile banking and the digital aspects of what can be done from home, but moving 27,000 of us to work remotely and getting everybody the equipment to do so. Whether it's the processed transactions or to take some of the hundred and twenty five million calls we process every year, that was a real challenge. But as I said at the beginning, Russell, what really shone through for me as a captain of the team was that our purpose, the reason for being, our raison d'etre really stood the test of time during the pandemic, and we've come out stronger as a bank with culturally and financially. 

[00:09:43] Russell: So one of the things that I think is unique about where banks are situated within the Canadian economy is, you know, like like any business leader, I imagine you're going through the pandemic, you're thinking about your people, you're thinking about wanting to keep the business going, but wanting to keep your your people safe. Support them as they go through, you know, not just workplace challenges, but personal challenges. And yet you have this additional responsibility, which is if you can't function as a bank, Canadian business can't function. Was that on your mind? The responsibilities that you have sort of outside the bank itself, but to keep the Canadian economy functioning? 

[00:10:20] Victor: Very much so. The Canadian banking sector is an important lifeblood of the Canadian economy. It is known globally as one of the most resilient and best run banking centers, and we take our role within that lifeblood within that economic ecosystem very, very seriously. I always tell everyone that banking is not about processing a transaction. Banking is not about making a loan or making a deposit. Banking is all about understanding what your clients need. Good times and bad and helping them realize those ambitions and therefore the role that we play is incredibly important one. And as with all crisis, what happens in banking in Canada is you have the Bank of Canada, the finance minister and their team come together with the banking system and our regulator to make sure that the system is functioning well. That happened during the great financial crisis of 08 and 09. It happened again during the pandemic, and that is another defining characteristic. The whole ecosystem is contingent on all of us working together to make it work, particularly during difficult times. And then it's time to get more normal. It goes back to normal competition, if you will. We're always competing, but there is a collaborative element in the crisis that I think is a defining characteristic of the Canadian banking sector, and we take our role within that very seriously. 

[00:11:43] Russell: Looking beyond the pandemic, what are some of the trends that that you're thinking about for CIBC? 

[00:11:49] Victor: Well, look, there's a couple of things that I'd say matter a lot going forward, right? One is collaboration is going to be really, really important as we go beyond the pandemic and continuing to strengthen our team from everyone that's hiring the best talent to developing the best technology to serving our clients. That's going to be really, really important. I think integrity and trust is going to be really important. Clients did go through some very anxious and intense times and not losing sight of the fact that integrity and trust is kind of the lifeblood of what we do as a bank. I'd say the third thing after the pandemic is continuing to invest in technology is to simplify our client experiences, to simplify the experiences for our employees, to make life more mobile, if you will. You don't necessarily always need to come into a banking center. We'll come to you equipped with the technology to deliver for you. And I think that notion of flexibility is going to be really important in the post-pandemic world. 

[00:12:54] Russell: Now, I know you're passionate about ESG. Can you tell us a little bit about how CIBC approaches ESG? 

[00:13:00] Victor: Sure. Well, there's the there's the E and there's the S and there's the G, right? And too often we just focus on one of those. But ESG is a lens through which investors and all our stakeholders look through in today's day and age, the environment and how we're dealing with climate change, social aspects of how you run a company and governance aspects of how you run a company. And E and S and G are becoming incredibly important because investors are using it as a lens through which to consider which companies to invest in. And in that regard, we want to be a leader and recognize as a responsible organization when it comes to the environment. We want to, as a Canadian domiciled bank that operates around the world, recognize that climate change is happening. We know that the energy portfolio of Canada is the most robust in the world and we need to work with all aspects of it to deliver going forward. That includes signing the Net-Zero Banking Alliance, which we're a signatory to, where that includes introducing targets as we roll over the course of this year. On the S side, Russell, it's about the culture of inclusiveness. It's about making sure that all aspects of the economy that we serve and all people in the economy reserve feel like they've got an opportunity to banking with us. And that is really, really important. Whether it's the black community through our Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund, Newcomers to Canada, the indigenous community and other stakeholders in our community. And then the G is governance. It used to be about just the board, and I'm proud of our board. We've got an amazing board. It's chaired by Kate Stevenson, a wonderful executive woman. We have a 50 50 breakdown in our board in terms of men and women. We've got representation of skills, representation of global geographies and they play an important role. But governance is also about how the digital world is reshaping banking and how data plays a role, how privacy plays a role, making sure we have a leadership role in that as well. 

[00:15:07] Russell: I understand that one of your big areas of focus as a leader has been modernizing CIBC. Can you tell us a little bit about what modern means to you? 

[00:15:19] Victor: Sure. Well, I always say, let's not lose sight of the fact that our bank serves clients, so never lose sight of that. Respective of whether you're looking at the way things were done or the way things will be done in the future. Modern means understanding your clients and understanding how their needs are changing, because if you can do that well, you typically get your strategy right and you get your execution right and you continue to maintain your competitive market position and strengthen it, ideally. Modernizing means understanding what our team members want in terms of, you know, listening to the younger members of our team, listening to how social media and how the digital economy is influencing banking and their overall lives, and how we have to change as a result of that. Modernizing means making sure you have good cyber defenses because as more data is out there and everything becomes more digital, everything is in either. So it's our responsibility to make sure that it's protected. Modernizing means taking financial planning, which used to be a pen and paper to a digital format and a living document that continuous to get updated more easily with our clients and with our advisors because it's a digital format. So modern to me is about understanding how relationships evolve, understanding how our employees are evolving in terms of their own needs, and understanding how to deliver that for our clients in terms of technology and keeping an eye out for non-bank competitors. 

[00:16:53] Russell: According to Victor, modernizing means understanding your stakeholders and how their needs change. He also talked about the importance of evolving processes and systems for stakeholders to make things easier. I love this. I think CAAT pension plan, we consider ourselves a modern defined benefit plan and what Victor says resonates so much with what we are doing. A CAAT modern means making pensions easier to access while also innovating to ensure that both employers and employees needs are met. Victor's belief is that there should always be a place for the human component in every transaction. Let's hear more about his thoughts on approaching relationships in a modern way, including his advice for others looking to evolve their organization. I love the idea of approaching relationships in a modern way, so continuing to prioritize that relationship, but kind of approaching it in a way that unlocks the potential of new technology. I have to admit to you, I was not a CIBC customer and I became a CIBC customer in the last year. And my experience is really interesting in that I was looking to buy a new home. I was looking for kind of a referral, and I was referred to a mortgage adviser with CIBC. And his name is Keshur, and he is in Mississauga, actually, as you were. And I just loved the way he approached it. So he was available to be on text message and he was really about the relationship. So he was saying send me photos of the house. He stayed in touch. So he wants, you know, wants to see the renos that we're doing. And the relationship that I had with Keshur was dramatically different than the relationship that I had with the people at the previous bank that I was with. 

[00:18:59] Victor: Yes.

[00:19:00] Russell: And just even that simple thing that, you know, communicating to me via text message. That's not a thing that all banks would do. And it really it's a simple thing that had a profound impact on the way that I saw and see CIBC. 

[00:19:18] Victor: Excellent. Well, you know, [00:19:19]sure [0.0s] epitomizes who we are. You didn't tell me you were you were a client of our bank. I didn't look into that before our talk, but I'm incredibly pleased to hear that story. You know, our mobile mortgage advisors, our mobile investment consultants are a big part of our evolving strategic narrative. Clients want to deal with their bank on their terms at their place of business through their medium. Banking is about understanding the role and effort of financing in your life. The role of investments in your life and having that context is incredibly important, so I really appreciate you sharing that story. 

[00:19:53] Russell: So going back to modern, what are the obstacles as you're looking at bringing a modern perspective to CIBC? What are the obstacles that you've encountered and how do you overcome them? 

[00:20:06] Victor: Well, there's always the evolution of an organization's culture and understanding, you know, helping everyone understand the journey that we're on, right? Because it's one thing to just say, we're going to do this and expect everyone to do it. But what I try and do is I try to do three things, and I know our leadership team tries to do this all the time. One is help everybody envision the future. To modernize and to let everybody know where you're going, they need to understand what I call the Big E, Envision. Envision what the future will look like and what we need to do to compete both with our incumbent competitors who are pretty intensely competitive. Then the second thing is inspiring everybody. I call it the big eye, inspiring everybody to understand their role within that so that they're not simply observers in all of this, because too often in a larger organization, you can make the speech, tell them where you're going. And then the third thing is just driving to action. It's one thing to paint the big picture. It's one thing to have the inspiration, but then there's the big d. How do you drive everybody to action? What kind of metrics do you put in place? How do you make sure that we can achieve those metrics as a team together in the interests of our clients and in our shareholders? And I think if we do those three things really, really well, you start to shift everybody in the direction of where you want to take the organization. And that's where we're heading. We're heading to continue to build a modern, relationship based bank and one that's a leader in the marketplace. 

[00:21:35] Russell: So taking this outside of CIBC and outside of of Canadian banking and thinking about Canada, what does Canada need to do to become more modern? What is Canada need to do as a country to prosper in the modern world? 

[00:21:53] Victor: Well, Canada is the greatest country in the world. I mean, you know, it's it's kind of cliche to say when you live in the country, but I think Canada is one of the greatest countries in the world. I'm proud to be Canadian. My parents came here, my dad arrived as a refugee and I've taken great pride of everything Canada's been able to give me. And I always think about, you know, what I can give back to Canada. So like an organization, countries also need to look to the future. And Canada, there's one thing super well, and that is the immigration policy that we have brings the best and the brightest to our country, points based, its merit based. And also there's room for those who who don't have the skills but want to contribute to the economy. And we leave the G7 in terms of immigration per capita in the world, and immigration is the lifeblood of GDP growth. Now what we need to think about as we bring in more new Canadians and aspiring new Canadians is how do we make sure that the housing supply issue is resolved? Because one of the big problems are we're going to have so much immigration. The housing stock is not going to keep up, but it's going to create tensions in the system. House prices keep going up and there's not enough rental stock, so that's going to be an important part of it. And the second thing human capital, that human capital of immigration is important, but also what do we do, what how do we ensure that Canadians who are here can compete well into the future? How do we make sure that we're investing in their education? How do we make sure that they know that education is a lifelong experience? You need to get re skilled as the economy changes. You know, how do we make sure? For example, the RESP, which is something that people think about for their kids, is an account that can maybe be used for your entire life. Why do you have to wind it down? Why can't you, at the age of 40, 50 and 60, go back to school with the benefit of the RESP program? That's one aspect of what Canada needs to do on human capital. The second aspect is financial capital. We are competing on the global stage for capital in our country, and we need more long term foreign direct investment in our country. We need to make sure that it goes into our naturally endowed industries as they modernize, but also to build new industries so that we can see a robust current account surplus, a robust capital account surplus over time. And then the third thing I think we need to pay particular attention to is social capital, social cohesion, making sure that as the economy grows, there is a benefit to everyone. And I think what I tell everyone, it's about growth. It's not about dividing the pie, it's about growing the pie and then making sure it's well apportioned to everybody. And everyone has an opportunity to participate in that economy. And that whole notion of social capital is really important. So the three pillars of capital itself and referred to human capital, financial capital, social capital, done right will continue to make our country stronger into the future. 

[00:24:44] Russell: Absolutely, I completely agree, I think. One of the things that come up on this show again and again is the enormous contribution that immigrants to Canada have made to not just our economy, but Canada as an innovator. And I think one of the things that has come to mind for me just in hearing you talk is is this idea of we have the point system and we have an opportunity to bring in immigrants who have the skills that we need. But I think far too often we have situations where, you know, an electrical engineer is driving an Uber or one of my best friends is from Iran. His mom in Iran was a really well-regarded doctor, was never able to practice here because there was just obstacle after obstacle. 

[00:25:34] Victor: Yeah, there are these barriers that do exist. You can call them trade barriers, skill barriers that need to be removed. Yeah, people need to go into the Canadian system and my wife's from a from Boston. She was a lawyer. She had to take her credits here and that was OK because now she can practice. But I think a fast track to that and recognizing them when they come to Canada, they come to Canada with a great deal of skill that can't be checked at the border. It's got to be built upon as they come in and settle here and recognizing that some of those skills are very, very valuable to us. So there's going to be some fast track programs to bring them into the system and make them feel like viable contributors to our economy. 

[00:26:17] Russell: Let's talk a little bit more about CIBC's people. So we talked a little bit about my experience with your people, which has been fantastic. How do you create that culture? How do you create that people centered culture? 

[00:26:32] Victor: Well, a big part of it is sort of helping everyone understand what our purpose is. And that's our real social fabric as a bank and never taking it for granted, bringing it to life. I'll often exchange stories with our team members on our internal postings of great client experiences. Or if something really someone has done a great job serving a client, the client writes back to me. I always, always, always make it a point to give back to the client, our client and our team member to help them recognize that what they did reinforces the culture that we're building. The second thing is that people need to feel like they play a role. You know, they they're inspired to stand up and deliver against the purpose of our bank. And that goes from everything in terms of how we train them and how skilled they feel in delivering against us. So make sure we're investing that to our inclusive culture. I chair the Inclusion Diversity Leadership Council. I meet with our leadership team, I meet with our 15 people networks at least annually and certainly more than annually to hear them out to understand what's on their mind and understand some of the ideas that they have that can strengthen the inclusivity within our bank. And it's not, for me, a social experiment. For me, it's about how do you develop great competitive advantage by harnessing the full capability of all your people? And that's really, really important as we build the Bank of the future. So that whole notion of culture and communication, the whole notion of inclusiveness. And then I think the third thing is leadership. Leadership matters. Things don't happen by default. That is what is our special sauce, if you will, as our leaders engaging with our team to make sure we deliver against our purpose. 

[00:28:22] Russell: That leads perfectly into the next question I was going to ask you, which is actually about your secret sauce. So this is really a question that we ask on behalf of our listeners as we interview business leaders. One of the big kind of curiosities is how does this person do what they do so successfully? So in your case, what I have read, what I have heard about you is that your secret sauce is that you have come to the bank. You've brought a lot of prosperity, brought new ideas, you brought new energy. You know, you've come with big, ambitious goals, but you're still really approachable. You're still a leader that employees, you know. I hear that there are lineups to take selfies with you at events. So how do you do that right? Like, I think somebody like you, Harvard MBA could be very intimidating to employees, but you're not. Instead, you're this approachable leader that they can really relate to. How have you managed to walk that line? 

[00:29:27] Victor: Well, I've never taken for granted the role I play and where I came from. And I always know that my successes in time were a function of people taking a keen interest in who I was and helping me become a better person, whether it was my mother, my father, my brother too. You know, the people that I got introduced to later on in life, and I'd say there's kind of on two hands, the people that had a fundamental influence on me, but they care. They genuinely cared. And my job as a leader, and I don't think it was a job so much as the kind of the role that I play is to make sure that people know, genuinely and authentically care about them. I care about what they think. I don't always agree with their ideas doesn't mean that we're all like group think. But to make sure that they know that they're appreciated to make sure that there's a thank you there when something well is done. You know, in the end, leadership is all about having power to give it away and make sure that the next generation is there to learn from it. I always tell this story. My mom had a number of different jobs, she worked at convenience stores, initially cleaning houses in Canada, and there's one gentleman who was chairman of a hospital, which she cleaned a house for. And he took an interest in me as a kid during the summertime because she didn't have a babysitter and he'd show me things. He'd show me how hospitals operate. He'd showed me how communities operate, and I'll remember that to the for the rest of my life. Early, early on, I learned from someone who took an interest. 

[00:30:53] Russell: I can imagine that role of a mentor in your life has impacted the way that you approach mentorship. 

[00:31:02] Victor: Absolutely. And you know, part of it is, you know, I'm only one person, in an organization, it's 45000 strong. What's what's really important is that everybody understands the importance of mentorship because, you know, when I make the mentorship talk about like, here's why it's important, too oftentimes say, can you be my mentor? As I can't. There are, you look for your mentors. You kind of create those relationships over time. Someone shows an interest in you and what you can contribute. And I always tell everyone with someone shows that interest, make sure you pay it forward to the person that you show interest in, because that will happen in your life to. 

[00:31:42] Russell: I always think it's funny when when you have somebody who says, you know, I want the CEO to be my mentor because so many times there are, you know, 16 steps between you and the CEO. When do you want to learn how to take, you know, the first, second or third step before you go? 

[00:31:59] Victor: Right. Absolutely. 

[00:32:00] Russell: How can our listeners learn more about the CIBC? 

[00:32:05] Victor: Well, make sure you befriend one of our team members or someone in their close circle to understand our bank and they'll share with you what we do. There are some things that they can share with you in terms of our own internal communications and some of the things that we focus on, like wellness and fitness and wellbeing. And that's the kind of stuff that will show you a dimension of our company. The second thing I'd say to everyone is we are open to building those relationships with you. So if you have a financial puzzle to be solved or an ambition to be realized or a dream to come to life, come knocking on our door and our team, regardless of where they are in our organization is going to make sure that we have the best and brightest looking to solve that problem for you or, more importantly, create that opportunity for you. And you know, there's obviously ways you can learn more about us online. But I'd say for me, try and get to know someone who lives, eats, breathes our culture each and every day. 

[00:33:03] Russell: Is there anything I didn't ask you today that you wanted to talk about? 

[00:33:06] Victor: You covered the spectrum, Russell. I'm impressed, from Disney to life to banking. I think we covered it. All right, so I'm impressed. 

[00:33:21] Russell: Today was another great episode. Emphasizing the organization's need to look beyond their bottom line. If you're looking to evolve into more of a modernized, relationship oriented organization, Victor has shared some really helpful takeaways. First, start with your people. Establish meaningful relationships with your employees by listening and understanding their needs. CIBC's listening tours are an interesting example of how to achieve this. Second, understand your competitors. And more so understand upcoming disruptors to your industry and build a vision around what you need to do to overcome or overpower those disruptors and bring your team along with you. Everyone needs to know the vision. Finally, drive your team to action. Picture made it really clear that inspiring your people is crucial, but you also need to map out a definitive plan and remove obstacles. The CIBC Make It Right program is a great example of this, as it harnesses technology to empower every employee to help improve the bank's customer experience. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. By the way, I wanted to give a heads up to our listeners about our upcoming CAAT Pension Plan Annual Webinar. It's an opportunity for you to join me in hearing from some of our key leaders at CAAT in an engaging panel discussion. If you're interested in learning more about transforming your workplace through a lifetime retirement income offering, you should tune in. Save the date on May 5th and visit PowerofPlus.ca to register. Thank you. I hope to see you again on April 20th for our next episode.